Talk:Eli Goldsworthy/@comment-26152297-20150228021736/@comment-3575890-20150411235104
"Before I start, I’d like to make it clear that I am a woman because I KNOW when people read this, they are gonna scream “MISOGYNISTIC ASSHOLE ALERT!”" One does not need to be male to be a misogynist, and one is not immune to being a misogynist if they are female, so this is a moot principle. "I’m tired of all these stupid, annoying social justice warriors running around insulting one of my favorite characters for saying a nebulous word, whilst not holding the real wrongdoers in this whole situation responsible for their actions." And I'm tired of all of these double-standard-perpetuating, rose-colored-goggles-wearing Eli stans worshipping him as though the sun shines out of his ass and absolving him of any wrongdoing no matter what it is. I am not coming from a place of bias. I have always been a huge Eli fan, but I admit he's problematic as fuck and no amount of love I have for him gives him a free pass from me. You do know you can be a fan of a character, still acknowledge when they're in the wrong, and that won't make you any less of a fan, right? If anything, it makes you a greater fan because you fully acknowledge all of their flaws and shortcomings and still love them in spite of them. "Slut shaming is a very flawed concept" No, more like slut-shaming is derived from a very flawed value system built on patriarchal ideologies and sustained by internalized misogyny. "It usually only applies to those who are not in a relationship or emotionally invested in another person" Uhhhh, no! What? Lol. Slut-shaming is the concept of deriding and harshly judging ANYONE for their sexual choices. Whether outside of or within a relationship, makes no difference of that. A relationship has no bearings on what constitutes this, just like it doesn't with abuse and sexual violence. Do you even realize how much your rhetoric that problematic issues/concepts can not be existent within a relationship ventures into some seriously dangerous line of thinking? "Clare Edwards does not fall into the second category; she was emotionally invested in another person, and that same person was still emotionally invested in her at time of her sleeping with douchebag Drew." ....so your logic here then is: if two people are emotionally invested in each other, BUT not actually officially together at the time, somehow their emotional investment in each other negates their rights to freely date other people as single people? Do you realize how ridiculous that is? There is no reason at all that a newly single woman can't partake in sexual relations with another person no matter how (yes, indeed) slimy that person may be or how romantically attached her ex still is to her. That is her prerogative and nobody else's business. She isn't romantically obligated to ANYONE least of all her ex whom she broke up with because HE had shattered her trust in him. "First off, I would not have called Clare a “whore” not because it’s "wrong" (because it isn't a big deal), but because it’s a little harsh considering her character. I mean, this is the first time she has ever done something as atrocious as this. It’s more suited, I feel, for someone like Lenore or Drew, a person who doesn't respect others’ boundaries. HOWEVER, I still would’ve called Clare out on her behavior, here’s why:" First of all, calling somebody a whore IS a big deal. It is a derogatory slur invented to shame and subjugate people - primarily women - for their sexual choices, but beyond that, it's also used as a tool to discourage women from expressing a sexual desire that deviates from what is considered the social norm and socially acceptable because at the moment, female sexuality is still largely demonized within our culture. It's a form of oppression, point-blank, and for you and so many others to not recognize that is just further evidence of the internalized misogyny deeply rooted within our culture. Second, the uncharacteristicness of Clare's choice to sleep with Drew has nothing to do with the principle of the matter. Even if Clare was a person more like Lenore, it wouldn't make her any less undeserving of being vilified by the one man who was supposed to love and respect her for a choice she made when she wasn't even romantically involved with him. I would also like to note that what she did was not nearly as atrocious as what Eli did, considering he WAS in a committed relationship with Clare at the time that he was with Lenore, but I don't expect you to say anything about that. That would require you to perceive your precious golden boy through a three-dimensional lens that would make him look less than perfect and we can't be having any of that obviously. "This is a case where it is not just people who love sex and want to indulge in it, but a relationship, a bond between two people. Generally, “Slut Shaming” refers to shaming women for indulging in “no strings attached” sex. But that’s not the case here." Uh no, that is just one example of slut-shaming. It's a complex concept that covers more than just the promiscuous woman trope. It does not exist in a vacuum. "NO, anyone who has REAL experience in relationships can and will tell you that breaking up with someone over voicemail does not constitute as a real breakup. It’s DISREPECTFUL; just as much as breaking up with someone over text is; it’s an easy way out and your mate (no matter how far away they are) deserves better. Cut the technicalities, it's still betrayal anyway you look at it." Holy hell, I don't even want to think about what kind of relationships you have been in then. Here, in the land of the modern living, once one person wants out, the relationship is over. It does not matter if the breakup is not mutual. Nobody is ever obligated to stay with somebody they don't want to be with any longer. If one person calls it off, no matter the manner that they go about it (and I agree that the way Clare broke up with Eli WAS really inconsiderate, but it was not as though she had the option of breaking up with him in person either with him being miles away), if the other person doesn't oblige, that is what we call grounds for a restraining order. And following the breakup thereafter, either party is free to date, fuck, even MARRY (assuming they aren't still married to somebody else) for all anyone cares, whomever they please. Welcome to 22nd Century North America where courtship, dating, and marriage isn't predicated on the dowry system anymore. “Slut shaming” as a term and concept makes no sense in and of itself. You can only make someone feel shame if they find their own actions as something they should be ashamed of. If they do feel shame it maybe because:" Lol oh please. Now you are just taking the word and twisting it to mean what it means to YOU rather than what it IS by definition. To shame and feel shame, for one, are two separate things. One is an act, the other is an emotion. They are not necessarily interchangeable in their meaning. You can vilify somebody for their sexual choices, they could be completely unbothered by it, and yet still, you're trying to invoke shame in them ergo you are SHAMING them whether your efforts are effective or not. "CLEW was a mistake. Clare knows it, that’s why she can’t stand up and say, “Eli, I WANTED to fuck Drew. It wasn’t on impulse and I’m completely over you!” But we all know that’s not the case. She should not have fucked Drew just hours after dropping that voicemail. A day or more would’ve been enough waiting to fuck the school douchebag. She hurt a boy who has stood by her since day one. She IS ashamed of what she has done because she knows it was WRONG. Would you have done what Clare did?" Would I have slept with Drew? FUCK NO. I would douse myself in battery acid before I'd even touch that piece of shit with a ten-foot pole, but I'm not Clare Edwards. I didn't just have my heart broken and lost all of my trust in a man whom I emotionally invested myself into years whom I believed would never hurt me. I don't agree with Clare's decision to have sex with Drew. I think it WAS a terrible decision because 1) Drew is a douchebag, and 2) Clare was vulnerable and should have taken that time to heal instead of turn to a distraction in the form of some casual, meaningless pump and grunt action with a total slimeball. That said, no matter the poor choice that it was, it was HER EVERY RIGHT to make it. At the time, she didn't even KNOW Eli would show so you can't argue that she made a conscious decision to hurt him the way that he was when he caught them together. It would be different if she and Eli had still been a couple, but they were not. And ultimately, Eli's cheating is what drove Clare into Drew's arms in the first place so your argument that she "hurt a boy who has stood by her since day one" is only HALF of the story. Eli in turn hurt a girl who held him up in the darkest of times, even at the detriment of her own mental and emotional welfare. "A woman who is truly sexually confident, will not care if she is called a ‘whore’ or ‘slut’, just like a man who is called a ‘dick’ or a ‘man-whore’ will not care about such remarks because they know they are not hurting anybody, emotionally invested in anybody, or doing any wrong and both will continue to do what is pleasing to them" You just don't get it, do you? Whether a woman is sexually confident enough to shake off the vitriol or not, the point is, they should be able to make informed sexual decisions without being treated as dirty miscreants. They should be able to express themselves sexually to the same degree that men are at liberty to without people ridiculing them. This is what we call a double standard. Furthermore, "dick" is not the male equivalent to "slut." It is simply an insult just as "bitch" is to describe an unpleasant person. It is not a very nice word to use, no, but it doesn't hold the kind of implications that words like "slut" and "whore" do that is only the puzzle piece of a much bigger picture and one that affects us all. "Manwhore" on the other hand, IS the male equivalent of "slut", and though it does not quite hold the same implications as "slut" used for a woman because of the free pass men have to sleep around without any consequence of derision, it does constitute as slut-shaming and is no more or less okay. "Stop setting different standards for how the sexes should perceive each other" You do realize, this is the very reason for why slut-shaming is a recognized issue, right? "Doesn’t this whole concept strike you as a bit belittling towards women? Holding men responsible for their actions (Ex: When Eli kissed Lenore and cheated on Clare, WHICH HE OWNED UP TO LIKE AN ADULT), but when a woman fucks up, and she’s called out on her behavior (Ex: Clare sleeping with Drew just hours after “breaking up” with Eli over voicemail and Eli calling her a whore when he found out), you baby her and call her a victim of “slut shaming” and DO NOT hold HER responsible for her actions like all members of society should be?" No, what I think is belittling towards women is the sexist attitudes of which slut-shaming is predicated upon, the (as you yourself put it) 'setting of different standards for how sexes should perceive each other' ie: the double standard that promiscuous men are heroes, but promiscuous women are sluts, or that male sexual freedom is normal and encouraged even, but female sexual freedom is an abomination that must be snuffed out. Furthermore, this idea that you just expressed that only men are held responsible for their wrongdoings, and women are let off the hook for theirs couldn't be further from the truth in most cases. When a man cheats, who is the one that is normally blamed? Who is the one that is ridiculed and treated as a social pariah? Lol it's not the man. If anything, outside and within fandoms, men are the ones being babied. Men are the ones who's actions are glossed over because "boys will be boys" and "that's just how things are." The thing you fail to comprehend here is, that Clare is receiving less of the blame than Eli because she didn't actually cheat. No matter what you believe constitutes as a breakup, she and Eli WERE broken up. She did not cheat on him. Had the situation been different and she did, nobody would be sitting here "babying" her. They wouldn't be babying Eli like you are either though. They'd acknowledge that both Eli and Clare made a mutual decision of equal reprehensibility. "That is pure hypocrisy. Women are capable of taking responsibility for their mistakes SO STOP SHELTERING THEM!" It is only hypocrisy if both parties committed the SAME ACT and one was held to a different standard than the other for said act. In Eli and Clare's situation, this is not the case. Eli cheated. Clare did not. What part of this doesn't make sense to you? "We judge people all the time, everyday. It's how we choose our friends, our mates and make decisions pertaining to something as little as how to spend our Friday nights to something as big as our futures. So, a person who is romantically and emotionally lined to another person who has betrayed them, has no right to judge them for it? WHAT? WHY? HOW?" YES, THEY DO NOT. Because it does not matter if there are romantic feelings there; if they are not officiated, both people are free agents. This is basic Dating Etiquette 101. Clare did not 'betray' Eli. She was not committed to him when she slept with Drew and she had no romantic obligation to him as a freely single person just because she and Eli still had feelings for each other for what she did to constitute as a betrayal. She did not promise Eli anything, but just the opposite. If you want to point fingers, Eli if anything betrayed her when he cheated on her, which led to her losing feeling for him (even though she still loved him), breaking up with him and rebounding with Drew in the first place. "If you’re gonna cry “SLUT SHAMING!”, then you MUST also take into account all the MEN who are called ‘douchebags’, ‘dicks’, ‘man-whores’, ‘jackasses’ etc., because those are also derogatory terms used by women to shame men of their sexual activities." ' I've already explained this to you. No, they are not. All but "manwhore" out of those insults have nothing to do with ridiculing men for their sexual choices, so they are not the same in the meaning OR the weight that they hold. '"You must also exclude anyone in a "love triangle" or anything of that emtional nature because it simply doesn't apply to these situtations. Just one of the reasons why the concept of ”Slut Shaming” is incredibly flawed because it refuses to even acknowledge the shaming done by women towards men." BULLSHIT. Slut-shaming is frowned upon because what a person does behind closed doors (so as long as it's LEGAL) is nobody else's damn business. It's that simple. More focus is put on women than men only because they are largely subjected to this type of ridicule more often. If men were treated the same as women for their sexual choices, rest assured more people would be standing up for the men as well. But men aren't nearly impacted by this to the degree that women are. "The only reason Eli knows Clare had relations with Drew was because she believed she was pregnant with Drew’s child. Clare has never told Eli that Dallas kissed her." So what you're saying is, a kiss that was forced on Clare without her consent is something she should be sorry for? Clare didn't kiss Dallas. HE kissed HER without her permission. There is no reason Clare had to tell Eli because she didn't do anything wrong. I suppose you also think Clare should have apologized to Eli for Asher's forcing himself upon her. And why should Clare have told Eli about Drew if he didn't find out for himself? They were broken up at the time. Eli isn't entitled to know about every intimate, personal detail that went down in her life while they were apart. "Clare has yet apologize for continuously using Eli’s mental illness to justify criticizing him every chance she gets when in reality, his affliction has next to nothing to do with said situations (dealing with Cam’s suicide, whoopin’ douchebag Drew’s rude ass, the fire Miles started, calling her a whore, this drama mess SHE created, etc.)" ' Aside from your assertion that Clare "created this drama mess" (which simply isn't true as this whole thing began with ELI'S cheating mistake), I agree with you about Clare stigmatizing Eli in respect to his mental condition. BUT once again, you're only focusing on Clare's indiscretions while sweeping all of Eli's under the carpet. Eli has done plenty that he should have and never apologized for either. It's a two-way street. '"Lastly, she was willing to let her child grow up fatherless simply because he made a judgement on her based on the merit of her actions!" I'm just going to ignore the ignorant commentary that followed thereafter this because frankly, I don't want to deal with that right now, so I'm going to instead focus on this ONE point of yours that I myself have conflicted feelings about. On one hand, it's simply the principle of the matter that Eli should have the right to be involved in his child-to-be's life. But on the other, if Eli's actions as of recently have led Clare to not only not want anything to do with him, but also feel that Eli might not be emotionally stable enough to father their child, it is absolutely her right and call to make. It's a complicated and messy situation. I feel bad for Eli in the sense that he is being denied getting to father a child whom he seems to really want, but then I also don't because the very reason for why he's being edged out is based on the merit of HIS ACTIONS. The fact is, he has been lashing out a lot lately and whether his mental condition plays a role in it or not, Clare is justified to think that it might be because the fact of the matter is that Eli has a history of violently lashing out. And Clare has every right to not want to risk her child being exposed to that. "Clare, I used to love you, but you’re fucking up in so many ways. Stop, pull your head out of your ass, make a game plan FAST and focus on your baby and your future. If you’re going to get back with Eli, RESPECT HIM like he has respected you. When you fuck up like he did (Morty, Lenore), TAKE RESPONSBILITY for your shit like he did! Him being bipolar HAS NOTHING to do with the fact that you fucked up, your poor decisions and your shitty attitude! Own up to your shit, apologize, and don’t throw things in his face that have nothing to do with the real issue!" Sigh, the favoritism is strong with this one. As far as Clare is concerned, apart from your attitude that she's the only one at fault, I actually agree with you. BUT oh my god, as far as Eli is concerned could you be more of a hypocrite? Eli cheating on Clare and then calling her a whore for a choice she made when they were broken up that frankly isn't any of his damn business is NOT RESPECT so do not twist it as though he's ALWAYS respected her and Clare is this ungrateful bitch who doesn't appreciate him. HE took her for granted just as much as she did him. You fail to mention that Eli also hasn't apologized and atoned for a damn thing. You preach long-winded spiels about how people should own up to their shitty actions, but only apply this standard to ONE character out of a party of two who have both inexplicably fucked up, and that is the very essence of hypocrisy. "If you don't miscarry (which I am still crossing my fingers for) and this child is born, when you hold little Adam Jr. for the first time, look at him and APOLOGIZE to him. Apologize for the burden and worrying you gave Drew, the pure humiliation and suffering you caused his father, and finally, the neglect and disregard you gave HIM by believing he would be better off without his dad simply because you couldn't stomach owning up to your mistake!" The onesidedness of this makes me want to puke. Clare has some to apologize for, but sleeping with Drew is NOT one of them! Eli, on the other hand, has A LOT to apologize for. The fact that you have your head so far up Eli's ass that you cannot see this is appalling and exactly an example of that the very issue of which you insist is no big deal (at least the ones that are injurious to women) is a real phenomenon and at large. "I don’t care who calls me a crazy Eli stan. This isn’t extreme fanaticism; this is part of a bigger issue. The truth is, people who honestly believe in the flawed concept of “Slut Shaming” go out and police others everywhere they go to be politically correct. It is dangerous! Open your eyes and realize how coddling women does nothing for society except giving women special treatment or a free pass everytime she fucks up. Social justice warriors are holding us all back; they perpetuate extreme hypocrisy, double standards and cater to the overly sensitive and the whiny as seen in the comments below. Also, a small search on youtube or google can give you more examples of this." So, demand for women to be treated equally to men is coddling them? Lol no, the reason that women have to fight tooth and nail for even a fraction of the privileges and freedoms men are given is because MEN are the coddled ones. Men are the ones whose actions are shrugged off, normalized, and dismissed as a mere case of "boys being boys" while women aren't extended even remotely a fraction of that leniency for their fuck-ups. Men are the ones that can get away with so much no matter the magnitude of the mistake, while women get away with so little, no matter how SMALL the mistake in comparison. Men are the ones that are held to realistic human standards; when they fuck up they are only human, and hey, at least they apologized. Women, however, are expected to be shining paragons of virtue and perfection 24/7 and if they fail to measure up to any less than that at any given time, they are bitches and sluts. Some social justice warriors may be overzealous and take their cause too far, but at large, the very things they stand against is the things you lay blame with them for the perpetuation of. Lol. Those that operate by counteractive methods that only further contribute to the perpetuation of problematic social issues are radicals that clearly have their own agenda apart from the others, and it's certainly not in the name of equality for all, lol. "If simple words are gonna stop you from doing what you want, and you can't shake off the haters, society is not the problem, you are--stop trying to bring everyone down to your insecure level." Oh, so victim-shaming is your approach then. The perpetrator of the act is never the one at fault, but rather the blame lies always with the victim for allowing the act to have power over them. What kind of fuck-all logic is that? For one, we have no control over what affects us negatively. Shaking off things that upset us on a deep, personal, and psychological level is an ability that is beyond our mental and emotional threshold. Your contention that the fact that we aren't robots that can program ourselves to cease to feel human emotions invoked by things that deeply bother us is the problem is ludicrous. The cause is the problem. Not the effect. The latter wouldn't even exist without the former. Have you never heard of the adage, "words cut deeper than knives?" Words are not always just "simple words" that can be shaken off. Some hold more weight and implications that can affect the quality of people's lives. And more to the point - there shouldn't be ANYTHING that needs to be shaken off. So going on your logic then, would you argue that racist slurs being throw around in every day vernacular is not the fault of a racist society, but the people affected by these racist attitudes perpetuated by this society on account of that they can't just "shake it off?" And you have the gall to insinuate that people who stand up against slut-shaming seek to police people's lives? YOU right now are policing how people should react to and deal emotionally with being subjected to a type of mistreatment that is known to deeply affect one's self-esteem, self worth, and emotional/mental welfare. Would you vilify a suicide victim whom was driven to the brink from being bullied mercilessly because they couldn't simply "shake it off?" Are you aware that there is an alarming statistic of young girls who commit suicide as the result of being ridiculed and humiliated for choices of an intimate nature? Do you even realize how ignorant you sound? "And to all the douchebag Drew supporters, Clew shippers and Eli haters, I’d like to point out that in FIrestarter (2), in that minute or so that Eli was onscreen after the fire, he did more for that baby than Drew ever did in the entire season LOL. Eli has his shit together, Drew is narcissistic, rude and selfish and would've made a horrible father! He should never reproduce." Calling people douchebags on the basis of their opinion of a character? Real classy. Definitely strengthens your position. I actually AGREE with your character assessment of Drew. He IS all of those things. However, as much as I do love Eli IN SPITE of his monumental faults that I unlike you am not blinded to, he too has the capacity to be all of those things as well. Maybe not on a scale as large as Drew, but there have been instances that he's been rude, selfish, and narcissistic. "I understand why others may not like Eli for different reasons, but to try this character assassination and demonizing tactic against him over something as petty and faulty as "slut shaming" is ridiculous and you look more childish than Clare and Drew combined." Oh no, my dear, your selective comprehension is what is childish. Once more, you are only looking at PART of the picture through rose-colored goggles. People are disgusted by how Eli called Clare a whore and how RIDICULOUSLY out of character it was for an egalitarian like Eli of all people, but they've also felt his character has been horribly written since as far back as last season primarily beginning with his cheating, which WAS undeniably out of character for a character whom was once notorious for being the single most monogamous character on this show. That pitfall was not just shitty writing, but practically as untrue to Eli's character as Becky renouncing her faith, Tristan deciding he's heterosexual, Drew pledging himself to a life of celibacy. All of these things would not just be dramatically out of character for these characters, but would actually turn them into the very antitheses of themselves. With Eli, this is no exception. Forsaking his values and views about monogamy and loyalty of which he once held in such high regard that was SUCH a defining part of his character was the ultimate fuck you to his fans. Obviously you don't see it as character assassination because your tunnelled line of thinking prevents you from even understanding that he did anything wrong, but for those of us who can separate our better judgment from our love for a character, we feel that he's become completely unrecognizable from the dark, sardonic prince we fell in love with. P.S The "sources" you've cited is nothing more than biased anti-propaganda that you probably selectively sought out and does nothing to strengthen your stance. Slut-shaming is not even a theory that can be debunked, lol. It's a subset of misogyny (and in addition xenophobia) which is a REAL issue that has existed as a world wide phenomenon since the beginning of time.